Legislature(1999 - 2000)
02/23/1999 08:05 AM House STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 45 - INITIATIVE/REFERENDUM PETITIONS HJR 7 - CONST AM: INITIATIVE/REFERENDUM PETITIONS Number 622 CHAIR JAMES announced the next order of business in HB 45, "An Act relating to initiative and referendum petitions; and providing for an effective date."; and HJR 7, Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of Alaska relating to initiative and referendum petitions. CHAIR JAMES explained that these two bill have been in a subcommittee. Number 625 CHAIR JAMES called for a brief at-ease then called the meeting back to order. CHAIR JAMES announced there is a committee substitute for HB 45, CSHB 45(STA), 1-LS0254\D, Kurtz, 2/22/99. There is also a committee substitute for HJR 7, CSHJR 7(STA), 1-LS0252\D, Kurtz, 2/22/99. She noted the change for both committee substitutes is 10 percent. She called for a motion to adopt the committee substitutes for consideration. Number 637 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON made a motion to adopt CSHB 45(STA), 1-LS0254\D, Kurtz, 2/22/99, and CSHJR 7(STA), 1-LS0252\D, Kurtz, 2/22/99, for discussion purposes. There being no objection, they were so moved. Number 645 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON explained, as a member of the subcommittee, a number of different percentage points were looked at. The subcommittee concluded that the three-fourths number, as proposed by the prime sponsor, would expand the democratic process into rural Alaska so it was left in the bill. The subcommittee also discussed a number of different percentages of those in the various house districts and came up with 10 percent. The original 15 percent was a bit heavy, especially for the sparsely settled districts, creating an extra burden. He also noted 10 percent was used in the early language by the Founding Fathers of the state constitution. Number 667 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN announced he has an amendment. CHAIR JAMES called for a brief at-ease then called the meeting back to order. Number 667 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN made a motion to adopt Amendment 1. It reads as follows: TO: CSHB 45(STA) Line 12 (2.) [AND] resident in [AT LEAST THREE-FOURTHS] all of the house districts of the state: and REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON objected for discussion purposes. Number 673 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN explained Amendment 1 adds the language "all" instead of "three-fourths" to the bill. The committee substitute eliminates the possibility of the average citizen to amend statutes by referendum due to the cost of getting to each of the house districts, but three-fourths is not a high enough bar for the special interest groups from the Lower Forty-Eight, such as the sierra clubs and animal rights activists that have been involved in initiative processes in Alaska. He reiterated, as the bill is written, it is obtainable for a well-funded organization to get those signatures. That organization can go to the house election districts in the major urban centers and pick up a few in the bush. The amendment makes it fair for everybody. He said, "If we're gonna make it tough on the grassroots folks, I think we ought to make it tough on the well-financed special interest groups as well." Number 697 REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER stated it seems the amendment makes it impossible for any group to rise from the grassroots and utilize the petition process. It was his impression that the bill intends to raise the bar somewhat while still making it possible to utilize this important constitutional process. He is concerned about the amendment even though he agrees in part to it, but feels it is shutting the process down altogether. Number 707 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON stated, although he understands where Representative Ogan is coming from in regards to the well-funded outside groups, he believes the committee substitute expands the level reasonably from two-thirds to three-fourths. An organization would have to go to 30 out of 40 districts in order to get 10 percent of all the people who casted a vote in the preceding general election. He cannot support the amendment because it may shut down the initiative process. He said, "I think we're going to have a tough enough job selling making it tougher rather than to essentially make it almost impossible." Number 718 REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY stated he agrees with the comments made by Representative Whitaker and Hudson... TAPE 99-8, SIDE A Number 001 REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY continued. Even though he was part of the subcommittee, he now questions whether 10 percent of the three-fourths is reasonable. This is just to get the measure to the ballot box. He doesn't support the amendment, and announced he is having second thoughts about the committee substitute. Number 014 CHAIR JAMES referred to the numbers provided by the sponsor of the various possibilities. She asked the committee members to look at the numbers at 15 percent for each of the house districts and visualize the numbers at 10 percent. She calculated a few of the house districts then stated 10 percent might be too high. Number 072 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA stated, after agonizing about this with Representative Smalley for the past week, she came to the conclusion that the numbers turnaround at the end and actually start to hurt the bush and rural communities. CHAIR JAMES referred to the numbers provided by the prime sponsor and calculated a few house district at 5 percent. She stated presumably those who support initiatives do so because they haven't been able to get the legislature to pass such a bill meaning it either isn't a good idea or it is from the minority. Furthermore, it is easy to get signatures because people don't like to say no. Those getting signatures even sit in a supermarket and ask for them. She wondered whether the intent of the law is recognized in those cases because a lot of the people don't understand the initiative. Many people sign purely because they believe it should go to a vote. And, when something is on the ballot Anchorage alone can pass it disenfranchising the rest of the state at which point the representative part of government has failed. A balance is needed. She noted a figure of 5 percent of those who voted in the preceding general election doesn't sound unreasonable, but one person in two-thirds of the house districts is not enough. Three-fourths calls for 4 of the 15 bush districts, otherwise the urban districts are only needed. Most of the rural districts have a larger community such as Nome, Barrow or Kotzebue, and wondered how many signatures are possible as a percentage in those cities. Number 151 REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL JR stated, referring to the intent of the Founding Fathers of the state constitution, the 10 percent and 8 percent numbers were intended to get a minority view on the ballot. Today, the ability to travel and communicate is very high and keeping the numbers high enough to require work is just as important as making it too easy. He is not saying that the minority shouldn't have a view; he is saying that requiring three-fourths of the house districts is going to take work regardless of whether the number calls for 5 percent or 10 percent. The most important thing is to get more districts involved and 10 percent is not unreasonable. It will generate a discussion nonetheless. Number 202 CHAIR JAMES explained it is 10 percent of those who voted in the preceding general election and noted that the turnout has been low. It is not 10 percent of the registered voters. Number 207 REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL JR stated this process would encourage more people to vote by placing responsibility back onto the voter. It puts on-notice that this is an involved society. He reiterated 10 percent is not off-base. Number 217 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated the discussion has strayed quite a bit from the amendment. The purpose of Amendment 1 is to stand up for the grassroots people. Changing the ability of the average citizen to amend a statute is a serious policy call. The way the committee substitute is written has seriously affected the ability of someone without money or resources to get signatures, but it hasn't effected those with money. He said, "I think if we're gonna limit people's ability to amend statute by referendum, we should limit it for all and not just the little guy." He explained he didn't expect the amendment to pass, but wanted the discussion on the record. Number 250 CHAIR JAMES called for a roll call vote. Representative Ogan voted in favor of the motion. Representatives Coghill, Hudson, Smalley, Whitaker, Kerttula and James voted against the motion. The motion failed to pass. Number 254 REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY made a motion to adopt Amendment 2. It reads as follows: TO: CSHB 45(STA) Page 2, line 1 change "10 percent" to "5 percent" TO: CSHJR 7(STA) Page 1, line 10 change "ten per cent" to "five per cent" Number 264 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON objected for discussion purposes. REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY explained a bar of 10 percent will have the exact opposite effect and eliminate some of the rural vote. He thinks 5 percent is more reasonable. According to the statistical data, even 5 percent will be tough in some districts. He is not sure the bill should create a bar that will make the process more difficult. He would love to see 100 percent of the voters voting, but the turnouts have been pitiful. He reiterated 5 percent is more reasonable. Number 289 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON stated it is the eye of the beholder. The bill calls for 5 percent of those who voted in the preceding general election with a 30 percent to 40 percent voting turnout. He stated 40 percent is a high figure these days so it is not really 1 out of 10, but 1 out of 30 in a given region. In this case it is 1 out of 60 in a 30 percent turnout. He likes 10 percent and recognizes it will be the voters who make the final decision on whether or not to change the constitution. He agrees that one is too few and more than one is really in the eye of the beholder. Number 314 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated he would vote for Amendment 2 if it included "all" districts in the state. If it passes, he announced he would move an amendment to amend it. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON called for the question. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES called for a roll call vote. Representative Hudson, Ogan, Coghill, Whitaker and James voted against the motion. Representatives Smalley and Kerttula voted in favor of the motion. The motion failed to pass. CHAIR JAMES announced the bill will be held over in committee for further consideration.
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